I am a botter / gold seller at the start of every major classic expansion release, as unpopular as ill be, ask me anything and ill honestly answer you.

[u/SneakySig]

Majority of my selling is done directly to suppliers of major websites as price and demand fluctuate. I also have regulars from guild leaders to casuals who hit me up, below is a screenshot of what i made off this particular website in the first 3 weeks of wrath launch, but as mentioned i sell all over the place. Id avarage $2-3000 per month for the first 3 months of an expansion launch, ill run anywhere from 5-25 bots at a time. To explain the SS this was the profit on this site during wrath launch, its not the biggest site i use, but just over $1000 from it.

https://imgur.com/a/gLyCwQz

Been doing this since the glider days ( real vanilla ) , on and off between the years. Not here to gloat or shitpost, just see ALOT of misinformation regarding selling gold in wow, for example i am not chinese, i do care about the game and i do belive more should/could be done to stop people like me.

That said, ask me anything.

[u/spearmints]

Stop reporting this. It's staying up.

[u/Lagwins1980]

If blizz hit you with a ban how quickly are you back up and running and is it cost prohibitive?

[u/SneakySig → u/Lagwins1980]

15 mins?

Im 58 already, just get the old faithful route going and im back at it. Banning is more an inconvinence than anything.

[u/Lagwins1980 → u/SneakySig]

:P i am aware that it is only a minor inconvenience to people that bot, more of an illustration for those that think that bans do anything other than hinder you momentarily and that the incentive is still there regardless.

[u/SneakySig → u/Lagwins1980]

Its sad, but since the boost its just reality.

[u/SolarClipz → u/SneakySig]

But but reddit told me the boost wouldn't be used by botters cause the cost ruined their profits

[u/SneakySig → u/SolarClipz]

Even at us prices thats absurd.

[u/Abeneezer → u/SolarClipz]

So it was just Blizzard double dipping into the profits of gold sellers while exarcerbating the problem to pave the way for wow tokens? Who could have guessed???

[u/userseven]

You said ask me anything so...

If you were blizzard how would you eliminate all (or the majority) of bots?

[u/SneakySig → u/userseven]

Great question that most people will ask.

The answer? They cant. Or rather, they wont.

The only way botting becomes unprofitable in the long term is if warden detects and auto bans the botter. The warden tech is long out dated meaning bots get banned almost exclusively due to player reporting these days. Gone are the days of having specific GMs per server. I remember on MULTIPLE occasions through the original vanilla/tbc/wrath launches not only would you get a whisper from a GM, but they would also fuck with your charector to catch you botting. Im talking suspending you char mid air, teleporting you to a random place, spawning invincible monsters to watch your bots rotation.

That level of human interaction is long gone and isnt profitable for blizzad to implement anymore.

So, while their is demand their will be supply, add to that the lack of humans monitoring other humans and theirs your answer. It wont stop, it never has.

[u/KeyboardSheikh → u/SneakySig]

I remember using a glider profile in STV vanilla and I would just sit there and watch my dumbass rogue level up. One time a GM tp’d me to stormwind (i was undead) and asked me some questions. I just instantly answered and played it off. He tp’d me back and I was scared shitless of ever running glider again. Sorry for the random comment it’s just a funny memory I have of my first and last time botting in this game

[u/SneakySig → u/KeyboardSheikh]

Haha i had similar happen to me multiple times, somtimes i bs*d myself out of it, other times i got the hammer.

[u/KnetikTV → u/SneakySig]

i remember back then running speakers next to my bed while i slept with glider on. had it set to beep at me if i got a whisper in case it was a GM LOL

[u/Buzzed27 → u/KnetikTV]

That was a built in feature! I had a friend who ran Glider during TBC. Was leveling as a druid and if other players came too close he'd auto stealth and move away. If he got a whisper, someone invited him or someone said his name an alert would play over his speakers and if he ever got a GM whisper he'd have a fucking SIREN go off.

I honestly think he had more fun making Glider pathing and rules then he did playing the game by the end.

[u/RolandTwitter → u/KeyboardSheikh]

I had something like that happen to me on a Minecraft server back in like 2013. It was a minigame where everyone was dropped on top of a giant dirt cube and had to dig down to find ore, and the player who found the most won.

I had just installed a wallhack for single player, but I tried it out on the server and it worked perfectly. After beelining it straight to a few diamonds in my first game a mod teleported me somewhere private and asked me if I was hacking. I looked down at the ground and said something like "yeah :("

He just told me not to do it again and teleported me back to the game area lol

[u/klm0151 → u/SneakySig]

you're right. It's not in their best interest to.

There was a really popular article in 2016 about Facebook making its app crash on purpose to see what the "line" was where reliability caused people to leave.

The most profitable path forward for them was to invest just enough into observability, incident response, etc to meet that line without crossing it. Obviously it's easier to not get anywhere near that, but whenever you have the data, it's pretty hard to justify why you're spending money that doesn't need to be spent.

There's a similar line for WoW botting, and probably economic health in general. How bad does it have to be before people stop playing? They have years and millions of users worth of data to figure that out. Blizzard will put enough effort to keep themselves below that line and that's it. Any more investment and they're wasting money.

[u/SneakySig → u/klm0151]

I totally agree with you.

[u/Folsomdsf → u/SneakySig]

FYI warden can't be updated. Any botter would know that unless is has extreme low level control and is able to invade other programs they're fucked. Processing power got high enough that bots aren't blind and inferential. So now there are merely routines that can semi randomize the interactions to not be spotted that way and now warden is blind.

[u/SneakySig → u/Folsomdsf]

Pretty much my take on it, although more eloquently said.

[u/Working-Toe827]

Do you think Hardcore will be botable? A common argument is that because everyone is one life (including the bots) that'll make botting unachievable, surely not right?

[u/SneakySig → u/Working-Toe827]

It will be attempted, ill be one of those trying it.

Its definately possible, you may not want to sit and kill 10,000 mobs 5 levels lower than you. But my bot will.

The gold price on hardcore is going to be incredible, and whoever comes up with the best bot will make a fortune.

I do think however most botters in it for the profit will just continue botting normal servers.

[u/Xossdk → u/SneakySig]

How frequently do your bots die on a normal server?

[u/SneakySig → u/Xossdk]

That would be an unfair comparison as id be running profiles that are level appropriate.

Say i have a level 12 hunter, i will bot the barrens on a normal server from this level, and can expect a few deaths here and their.

On hardcore, on a level 12 bot ill be farming level 7-8 mobs on a harder class, 8-9 on a better class.

[u/Dreager_Ex → u/SneakySig]

Do you deal with people griefing your bots? I've seen videos of people kiting mobs to bots and getting them killed.

If that is the case, what is the plan for handling that? 100s of Hours of botting can obviously be wasted easily if someone were to gank a high level bot.

Edit: Was referring to Hardcore, where the bot dying essentially kills it off completely.

[u/SneakySig → u/Dreager_Ex]

Haha all the time! Since my very first bot infact, so many storys i could tell you of the ingenious ways people troll my bots.

Its absolutely part of botting and while annoying its not a big issue.

[u/cdank → u/SneakySig]

If you had any on Angerforge, there’s a good chance my guild messed with you.

[u/SneakySig → u/cdank]

I did, what was your guilds name? An alliance one springs to mind!

[u/xFisch → u/SneakySig]

Still a better love story than Twilight

[u/klm0151 → u/SneakySig]

Yeah, my theory is that there will be a bit of an arms race.

The demand will be huge, and the supply low. Even lower knowing that characters will die and take their gold with them.

[u/SneakySig → u/klm0151]

Nailed it.

[u/Vaderaziel]

I don't approve of what you're doing, but I appreciate the insight you've given us.

[u/SneakySig → u/Vaderaziel]

Thanks. I appreciate the comment.

[u/SwarlesBarkleyyyyy → u/SneakySig]

Just wanted to say I appreciate you keeping your word and answering questions honestly.

[u/SneakySig → u/SwarlesBarkleyyyyy]

No problem.

I see alot of misinformation here, and id rather people know the other side of the coin fully, even if i get downvoted to oblivion.

[u/khodabear7]

Can you explain how a bot can run a dungeon? Like it seems pretty sophisticated to be able to handle all the things in a dungeon with a set of parameters or am I underplaying what a bot can do? Another way to ask is are bots able to account for pats, different pulls etc

[u/SneakySig → u/khodabear7]

Bots these days are incredible, thats without AI. Over years and years of tweaking the bot runs the instance like you would, its already over geared. It knows pat routes, when and when not to pull, basic mechanics, you name it.

[u/Comfortable_Line_206 → u/SneakySig]

Hell back in Cata my bot could carry battlegrounds and win WSG by himself. I can't imagine it today.

[u/KorahRahtahmahh]

What’s the easiest way to mess up a bot route as a a legit player? I guess it depends on the surrounding area of the bot but is there something that really annoys botters?

[u/SneakySig → u/KorahRahtahmahh]

Tagging mobs is annoying, if you learn a bots route and kill the respawns a few times ull find the botter moves area.

[u/Scouse420 → u/SneakySig]

In vanilla classic I would go and tag the target of target while they hardcast frostbolt on the wind elementals in silithus. The bot would then kill the mob and I’d loot it. Followed it for about about an hour then a human must have clicked on it said “fuk u” and logged off.

I mean probably wasted more of my own time th en anything else.

[u/DarkSilver66 → u/Scouse420]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who abused bots in Silithus for Essence of Air lol. Got a couple purples out of it as well xD

[u/Splendidisme]

I did 3-4 accounts at a time on honorbuddy back in the day. Got frustrated with ban turnovers and lost my main. 2 questions:

Have you ever sold leveling services or anything like that? How’s retail?

[u/SneakySig → u/Splendidisme]

Did a few leveling jobs early on, thought it would be fruitful as i kept the leveling gold, soon realised that $200 for the job and the $50 extra in gold wasnt worth losing the 60/70 i was giving back to the customer, so just botted for liquid gold from Then on.

[u/GuyFromWoWcraft]

It's early days since WoW Token™ how do you feel this new change will impact your income?

[u/SneakySig → u/GuyFromWoWcraft]

I think it will increase demand for gold, as it did when it first got released, therefore it will making botting more profitable.

[u/danielp92 → u/SneakySig]

Wait, you're saying the WoW Token will increase botting, contrary to popular belief?

[u/SneakySig → u/danielp92]

Absolutely.

Well, botting? Not entirely sure youll see a surge in bots per se. But gold demand? It has already gone up by a multitude.

[u/danielp92 → u/SneakySig]

Well, it makes sense that an increase in the demand for gold will lead to an increase in botting. Botters can also simply sell their gold cheaper than the price of a WoW Token, and then people can pay for their subs through tokens.

Or people could bot the gold themselves, buy tokens with it, and essentially play the game for free. Blizzard probably cares even less about bots when the token is out, which makes it easier to bot.

[u/Remnie → u/danielp92]

That was my thought. Now that people can purchase game time using in-game gold, a gold farm could sell enough for a wow token for less than 15$ and I could see people jumping at it

[u/Commander_Corndog → u/SneakySig]

100% makes sense, same thing happened in osrs. An official way to buy gold was introduced at a time where majority of BiS items are one-time purchases (If you assume gold buyers infest GDKPs). Now that gold buying is more accessible due a more expensive but "official" version, it's an arms race for people to out-gold one another. This will invariably include others turning to folks like yourself to source more gold for less money, with a good many probably being people who never felt the pressure to buy gold in the first place prior.

As history has taught us, the failure of WoW classic to properly learn from osrs (their competitor and legacy server elder/rival) has yielded a problem that is only going to divide and annoy the community more.

[u/SpartanVFL]

This thread is a good step toward finally educating this sub on why bots/gold selling will never go away as long as it’s profitable

[u/SneakySig → u/SpartanVFL]

That was kinda the intention, that and trying to correct the missinformation.

[u/bigfatpaulie]

What’s your opinion on Blizzard’s motive behind the Wrath WoW token? Are they admitting that the cost analysis of the token is more profitable than trying to allocate the resources to mitigate botting?

[u/SneakySig → u/bigfatpaulie]

They are not associating their decision to introduce the token based on botting. They are doing it to imrpove their revenue, the knock on affect of that is increased demand of gold, so both blizzard and the botters will profit :)

[u/pnaj89 → u/SneakySig]

So you say its purely profit with no intention to stop botting / rmt?

[u/SneakySig → u/pnaj89]

Pretty much, blizzards first and last priority is to generate revenue. Anything will always come second.

[u/Miseria_25 → u/pnaj89]

According to his other replies, adding WoW token increases the demand of RMT since you can now buy WoW Sub for less money than the actual sub cost. At least that's how I understood it.

[u/JesterOne]

What kind of hardware are you using to run 20+ instances of WoW?

[u/SneakySig → u/JesterOne]

Last time i fired 20 up it was on my old trusty 3090, their are programs which will make wow run in alot Less resolution and thus drain less on the gpu, you will also minimize each client to the size of a matchbox.

The interface gpu will tell you if you need to make a window bigger and use human input, until then its 20 small blurs.

[u/sseeaannsseeaann → u/SneakySig]

You can't run "headless" clients, it still has to be the official client, right?

[u/SneakySig → u/sseeaannsseeaann]

You can.

[u/TransportationOk5941 → u/SneakySig]

Fascinating. Am I correct in my understanding that "headless" means that you're not running the official client, but instead simulating a client without all the visuals? Receiving and sending network packets to blizzards servers, but not actually running the game?

Seems obvious that it's a great idea to handle it like that, though I'd be worried about all the things happening behind the scenes in the official client that Blizzards servers might notice if a headless client isn't sending those events.

​

Perhaps I'm overestimating blizzards attempts at thwarting botting...

[u/SneakySig → u/TransportationOk5941]

Ive replied to 100s of comments, but your the first person to give me the willys, you know to much 👀

[u/TransportationOk5941 → u/SneakySig]

I'll take that as a compliment, thank you very much.

I'm a software developer by profession so I have a pretty solid understanding of how various types of software applications operate.

​

I've considered trying to write my own bot, but I'm worried I wont be able to hide my tracks well enough to not get my main account banned. I feel like there's more things that can trip you up and get you spotted by Blizzards anticheat/bot. Gotta imagine that Virtual Machines and VPN are only part of a much bigger puzzle to "look legit".

[u/SneakySig → u/TransportationOk5941]

If your main is worth even a little to you, dont risk it. Let me get banned, you be the best software developer there ever was :)

[u/william_323 → u/SneakySig]

This is truly wholesome

[u/darkcathedralgaming → u/william_323]

This whole thread has me questioning life and justice and law hahaha.

This 'dreaded and rage inducing botter' is just spitting truth and charismatically being wholesome and uplifting in all the comments, sharing funny stories and being a good guy.

Just happens to be doing something I perceived as wrong and that causes a lot of anger and nerd rage and diminishes the player experience, something that also is illegal.

And some of us realise that not all illegal activities are actually bad though (like consuming weed or psilocybin for example, all still illegal here in Australia). As long as you aren't harming others (which there are laws for that too) what's wrong with taking those substances? And yet alcohol and cigarettes are legal and we know they cause so much harm, to both the user and others.

Then to find out that blizzard is just profiting from botters because getting banned is just a minor inconvenience for them; they just make another account and buy another sub. Oh no more free money.

Then to find out that the wow token is another purely profit driven operation masqueraded as a way to combat RMT and botters, and in fact increases the demand for gold as you can often buy enough gold for a token for less than paying for a sub normally...

So now blizzard can get a slice of the buying gold pie from gold buying gamers but now in addition those who are too afraid to buy gold from third party sellers, but are comfortable buying it off blizzard.

What a fucking mess haha.

I'm so conflicted, if I knew how to bot and sell gold and it would help me support my family then hell I would consider doing it too!

Good and evil really isn't just black and white, it is grey too.

[u/internetnickname4me]

Thanks for being here. This is the most interesting thing that's happened on this sub in ages. Much appreciated.

[u/SneakySig → u/internetnickname4me]

No problem, have a nice day :)

[u/lom_lv]

When your gold seller account receives ban it also affects all accounts which was contacted from it ? I mean you can just force ban on some random person by sending gold to it, or it doesn't work that way ?

[u/SneakySig → u/lom_lv]

Back in the day i could wake up to 10 accounts banned because one got flagged, with the widespread adoption of VPNs and virtual machines this is far less common.

And no, you cant get someone banned intentionally by sending them botted gold, although ofcourse gold BUYERS do get banned.

[u/2_22_hey_2 → u/SneakySig]

How would anyone differentiate between someone who bought gold from you vs someone you just gave gold to?

[u/SneakySig → u/2_22_hey_2]

Great question.

Without going deep into conversation logs i suppose noone could tell, but i dont make a habit of just giving people gold, as you dont want to flag someone who did nothing wrong.

[u/Propagation931]

1.) Out of curiosity. Do you still have regular customers from all the way back to Classic Launch? If not how old are your oldest regulars?

2.) How do you feel about the WoW Token and do you think it will hurt your business significantly? Do you expect Sales to dip or not be harmed

3.) I saw a video about how runescape botters are utilizing ChatGP. Will it be something you will be incorporating too and are excited about for its benefits or do you feel it is overhyped?

[u/SneakySig → u/Propagation931]

Ok to answer,

1) from back in 2004? Only really irl friends who dabble and know i sell from this period, its along time ago!

2) i think the token will increase demand, therefore make the problem worse. That is exactly what happened when it first got introduced.

3) bots today are incredible VS what we used to use, i see Ai eventually being able to think for itself, bots even today are as good as you make them.

[u/Propagation931 → u/SneakySig]

Thanks I have a quick follow up.

Majority of my selling is done directly to suppliers of major websites as price and demand fluctuate.

How proffesional are the major websites. Is it a no hassle thing or are there hoops you need to go to deal with them. Do you have favorites (Its ok not to name any names) because of ease or are they all pretty interchangeable. Have you ever had a bad experience with a Supplier (Not getting paid or poor service). Do any have a bad rep (for any poor service) to the botters providing the gold?

[u/SneakySig → u/Propagation931]

Wow, big question.

Nowerdays they are extremely professional. To sell is as easy as buying somthing from amazon. You ask the buyer the rate, if your happy with the rate you ask for a name, you take a video of you mailing that name the agreed amount, you upload that video to the website and youll be paid within 24 hours.

Thats the most common way of doing it, once you get gold on alot of servers you tend to work with the big boys, where instead of you telling them your supply, they will come to you.

[u/kaleoh]

How would the permanent removal of GDKP raids affect your profit? Like if we woke up tomorrow and it was impossible for people to buy and sell raid items (this is a hypothetical).

[u/SneakySig → u/kaleoh]

Heavily it has to be said.

I actually dont like gdkps, but i wont lie and say they arent a huge source of revenue for botting.

[u/kaleoh → u/SneakySig]

I appreciate the answer, thanks

[u/Wangchief]

Do you work with other games as well? Why or why not?

[u/SneakySig → u/Wangchief]

I have botted runescape, new world and a few other mmos. Aside from new world the profit vs time invested isnt worth it. Ive been botting wow for over 15 years so i know my stuff and tend to stick with it.

[u/misterrpg → u/SneakySig]

Ever botted in FFXI back in the day?

[u/SneakySig → u/misterrpg]

Tried it, hated it.

[u/Xez90 → u/SneakySig]

Tibia? Had a massive bot culture 10 years ago

[u/SneakySig → u/Xez90]

I hated the game, but know of people who made a killing in tibia back in the day.

[u/fiveMagicsRIP]

What type of bullying is most effective in getting you to stop?

More seriously, this has been an interesting read. Thank you.

[u/SneakySig → u/fiveMagicsRIP]

I have so many griefing stories from over the years. Some are just downright hysterical.

[u/dirdebirdy → u/SneakySig]

Any that you care to share? I love these stories, they’re entertaining if it doesn’t happen to you personally.

And as many others are probably saying: thank you for doing this thread, I’ve really enjoyed reading it even if I think botting and tokens are bad mmkay

[u/SneakySig → u/dirdebirdy]

Im going to compile a list, each one i can remember is pretty unique. Ill do my best to reply to you directly once ive got a list going as many people are asking.

[u/pm_me_beautiful_cups → u/SneakySig]

can you post a link to your list in your main post once you got it?

that would be great for visibility since its prob interesting for a lot of people.(inspiration for HC /s )

[u/SneakySig → u/pm_me_beautiful_cups]

Yes i will :)

[u/HeftyArticle3969]

could these bots use an advanced ai to give responses to whispers and random chats so as not to appear like bots and appear as real humans, as well as stopping, emoting, chatting and doing human stuff?

or is assimilating a human too difficult to be worth it.

[u/SneakySig → u/HeftyArticle3969]

Already kinda do this? If any of my bots get a whisper ill get a DM on discord. I reply on discord and the bot replies ingame.

[u/HeftyArticle3969 → u/SneakySig]

damn, that's interesting. Thanks for answering

[u/Xeno707 → u/SneakySig]

That’s more sophisticated than I thought the answer was going to be. I thought the old bots (like glider?) replied with whispers in-game even back in TBC? Obviously the answers were predetermined though, crazy it can be connected with discord now

[u/SneakySig → u/Xeno707]

Your dead right. Used to do exactly that, the discord thing has been going a few years now, i remember glider specifically used to play an awful noise when you got a whisper, dont miss that!

[u/[deleted]]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/SneakySig → u/[deleted]]

Im not willing to go into specific applications, but i tend to use a re-modified popular bot with my own touches, while ive never learned programming, ive spent many, many nights solving problems, adding features, re-coding the bots to know enough to get by.

[u/SneakySig → u/[deleted]]

Again, cant go indepth, but my avarage sub cost is $3-4, it uses virtual debit cards and a few other bits and bobs.

[u/Spacecadet_1 → u/SneakySig]

Barry stop botting or my dad'll beat up your dad

[u/Ravens_Quote → u/Spacecadet_1]

Jokes on you his dad is a bot that farms other dads.

[u/CDPaull]

Funny to see a gold farmer behave more sanely and rationally and respectfully (in his communications here) than 90% of the psychopaths in this sub.

[u/SneakySig → u/CDPaull]

Lots of pent up fustration i guess?

[u/Khaluaguru]

Do you pay taxes

[u/SneakySig → u/Khaluaguru]

I dont. I only get paid in crytocurrency which i know is taxable, but as said im being honest.

[u/Propagation931]

How often are you forced to innovate / change the bots programming? Blizzard mentioned its a bit of an arms race with constant innovation on both sides almost dayly. Is that True and are you always switching/improving the code, or is it false and you rarely recode/upgrade your bots?

[u/SneakySig → u/Propagation931]

Ive probably used 10 different bots over the years, started with wowglider, then honourbuddy, sg gather, pixel bots, injection bots, you name it.

No bot is guarenteed. With every minor patch devs will look at the code and make any changes nessecery.

[u/fiz0517]

How often do your accounts get banned?

[u/SneakySig → u/fiz0517]

This varys alot. A good account ill get roughly 90 days out of, but ive had accounts get banned within 48 hours. It all depends WHAT your botting. As bots have evolved now to just run instances, the ban rate has fallen. Back in the day you botted the open world and thus got more accounts banned.

Obviously affects the bottom line but once you work out how to get a sub for $3-4 its just more of an inconvinence.

[u/fiz0517 → u/SneakySig]

That cheap sub is for being located in another country ?

[u/SneakySig → u/fiz0517]

That used to be how it was done, first it was brazilian currency then argentine peso, that method as far as i know is now gone, but their still exsists a couple ways of doing it, i wont be saying how for obvious reasons.

[u/fiz0517 → u/SneakySig]

How much time invested before a bot breaks even? Sorry if I’m asking too many questions.

[u/SneakySig → u/fiz0517]

Ask away.

The general rule is if you level cap a bot its paid for itself. The raw gold will sell to pay its sub, hence why people see 100s if not 1000s of bots nowerdays.

[u/fiz0517 → u/SneakySig]

Do you think the wow token is going to make a big impact on your ability to sell gold?

[u/SneakySig → u/fiz0517]

No, if anything it will increase the demand of gold. Casuals who wouldnt buy gold to progress in the game will buy gold for a sub. It was the same back in the day when it was first introduced.

[u/Wangchief]

You talk about expansion releases which are obviously huge, what about the pending ICC release, which will have one of the biggest economy breaking events ever? (Shadowmourne Questline obviously)

A Full 1/3 of the raiding population most likely will be clamoring for this thing and needing the primordial saronite, without an actual gold-sink to make it happen. I have to believe this will skyrocket the cost of gold simply due to the competition.

[u/SneakySig → u/Wangchief]

Sky rocket is a bit of a stretch, with every launch, the price will ofcourse increase but with the level of raw gold now availible it would shock you to see how little it jumps.

What DOES sky rocket is demand.

[u/SIDER250]

Thanks for AMA. If it isn’t a secret, is it possible to live off what you make as a gold seller?

[u/SneakySig → u/SIDER250]

Absolutely.

Id say half if not more of the people doing it are doing it for a living. Indonesians, venuzaulens and chinese are the most doing it for this reason.

[u/Overwatcher_Leo → u/SneakySig]

Keeping the living costs there in mind they must be decently well off.

[u/SneakySig → u/Overwatcher_Leo]

Ive had many chats with guys from their. Its incredibly eye opening to learn what $40 means to a manZ

[u/Jemmani22 → u/SneakySig]

I talked to a guy from one of the southeast Asian islands. He was farming plaguebloom and I was clearing for one. He let me get it... after asking if I was going for it.

He said he farmed it for a living. Not a bot, an actual farmer.

We had a decent conversation, most people just steal shit bot or not. But he showed his human side. Said he made enough to feed the family. Every time I saw him after that going for an herb I helped him clear for it. He was a pretty cool dude.

[u/SneakySig → u/Jemmani22]

Man i needed that, ive had those convos myself .)

[u/Jemmani22 → u/SneakySig]

Depending on your situation. I'm not 100% against gold buying or selling.

I played with guys that work 60 hr weeks and wanted to play at high levels. Why not throw some money at gold in exchange for hours of time not wasted grinding.

I'm not saying what you're doing is right or wrong, but it isn't destroying the game like people think. It also makes consumes much cheaper

[u/meh4ever → u/Jemmani22]

Really in the end if you wanna look at buying gold from a cost perspective of work: how much time does it take you to farm the same amount of gold, how much do you make at work, take that time and multiply it and that’s basically how much money you spent in your own personal time versus running a bot.

If I make $75/hr and it costs me $15USD to buy 10k gold but it would take me 10 hours to farm that same amount ~ $15USD versus $750 worth of my free time.

[u/Mr-Pants]

Did you buy the bot program or write it yourself?

[u/SneakySig → u/Mr-Pants]

I brought the framework, paid others to code what i couldnt do myself.

[u/Fun-Attention1468]

Everybody keeps saying "akchsually it's impossible for blizzard to keep out botters"

Is that true? If blizzard had a real interest in the quality of their product, is it literally impossible to keep botting down to at least an acceptable level? Or is botting really that easy and/or keeping the bot population down really that hard?

[u/SneakySig → u/Fun-Attention1468]

Not impossible, incredibly unprofitable.

[u/desert2k]

Where do you live? The common conception is that most botters are from China or 3rd world countries so I am really interested.

[u/SneakySig → u/desert2k]

Im from europe. The missconception comes from the early days where their were sweatshops in china, check my comment history where i went a bit more in depth.

Id say the botting landscape is roughly 50% south east asian ( think indonesia, vietnam ) / chinese, and the other 50% is now european/na.

[u/desert2k → u/SneakySig]

Interesting. Additional question: Is this a legal registered business of you in the country where you live? So do you have to pay taxes for it? Or how do you avoid it?

[u/SneakySig → u/desert2k]

Cryptocurrency.

[u/desert2k → u/SneakySig]

But on most goldselling sites you can also pay by credit card or paypal, thats why i‘m asking how that works

[u/SneakySig → u/desert2k]

Oh, sorry.

To buy gold isnt illegal. Nor is it to sell gold, its against blizzards TOS thats all.

I only work with cryptocurrency in terms of my selling and therefore dont have to pay any tax on it.

[u/Nathmikt]

Waiting for the Asmongold video on this.

[u/Simonic → u/Nathmikt]

If he did -- he'd say he dislikes bots, commend the guy for using the system to make thousands, and then bash Blizzard for not locking down their client more. Most of the blame would be placed on Blizzard, and not so much the opportunistic botters.

[u/zellmerz → u/Simonic]

TBF I'm always going to blame the billion dollar corporation over the opportunistic individual. Blizzard absolutely could invest more funding into dealing with bots, but it's not profitable for them and their shareholders and that's more important to them than player experience.

[u/moist_hat]

How much have things evolved since glider? Do you still make waypoints, skill rotations, and vendor routes? Glider was using memory right, and that's now not possible?

I used to run 4-6 bots all the way back then, it was such a fun hobby.

[u/SneakySig → u/moist_hat]

Haha i miss glider to this day.

No you dont make waypoints anymore, the bot knows the entire zone and usually ill be running quest bots which will do all kill quests in a zone, afaik no bot uses memory injection anymore.0

[u/tom_c → u/SneakySig]

Damn I remember when glider started doing their "learning" model. I can't believe bots quest.

[u/SneakySig → u/tom_c]

They can not only quest, but multi quest a zone in an efficient route. Theirs very little left that cant be botted anymore.

[u/sseeaannsseeaann → u/SneakySig]

Are there any bots already which use AI-based optical recognition (ie basically "look" at the screen rather than accessing the memory or other techniques). I've seen a video of a WoW fishing bot (which was pretty simple with a static field of view to recognize the bobber movement), also read about a proof-of-concept CoD bots using machine learning to play (as opposed to being pre-programmed / scripted). I expect that at some point (really soon, probably) the technology should make this sort of a quality jump.

[u/SneakySig → u/sseeaannsseeaann]

On the market right now? Not that i know of, and id like to think i would.

Is the tech being looked at by coders, absolutely yes.

[u/abraxxustv]

Do you use VPNs to run your bots on? Curious if blizzard has issued IP bans for repeat botters... presuming you are running multiple bots from the same external IP?

[u/SneakySig → u/abraxxustv]

VPNs changed the bot scene dramatically, as did virtual machines. The short answer is yes. Not only while botting, but also while setting up the accounts.

Fun fact. When you make a blizzard account you get sent an email basically a welcome to blizzard email.

I can quote it word for word lol!

[u/Rambow215 → u/SneakySig]

How do you make so many accounts? are they all in different names/adresses/phone nr/email/billing info? seems like a huge hassle to keep track of

[u/SneakySig → u/Rambow215]

They are indeed in different names, addresses, Ect.

Luckily you can input gibberish into the fields and blizzard will accept it. So you only need to keep a track of the email/pw combo while that account is active.

[u/Hopsalong]

Do you play WoW actively still? or is mostly just a bot game for you now. Just curious what your enjoyment level of the game is given you probably spend a lot of time in "work" mode botting WoW.

[u/SneakySig → u/Hopsalong]

Im waiting for fresh, my biggest problem, and has been since WoD release back in the day, is that i want to play and raid just like the rest of you, but i cant help but spot the angles.

I did it with the last fresh, i played for 2 days just having fun, then it was “ill just run 2-3 bots for my own gold”

Ended up abandoning my actual toon and botted for 3-4 months.

[u/Veezybaby]

This sounds like a business, and you seem to know what you’re talking about. Hopefully I don’t come off as a dick but, why dont you spend your energy in a business where there is more money?

[u/SneakySig → u/Veezybaby]

I make good money from my real life job, botting was more of a hobby i turned profitable.

[u/Propagation931]

Do you often collaborate with other botters in terms of coding/tips/tricks/etc or are they more viewed as competition and any improvements are closely guarded secrets that dont get shared because they are the competition?

[u/SneakySig → u/Propagation931]

Over the years you meet contacts, whether that be huge suppliers, account sellers, bot devs, coders, fellow botters the list goes on.

The scene is incredibly secretive, one of the best things i learnt early was dont use mainstream bots that anyone can just google. Thats how you avoid waves for the most part.

[u/RedditsDeadlySin]

Very interesting read, thank you for answering all these questions

[u/SneakySig → u/RedditsDeadlySin]

No problem, have a great day.

[u/coldwaterenjoyer]

You mentioned that you botted runescape - how much of the gold selling scene there is actual bots versus Venezuelans farming gold full time for a living?

Is there a similar situation in WoW with people gold farming by hand to rwt?

[u/SneakySig → u/coldwaterenjoyer]

Indonesias, venezuelans and chinese litreally do it for a living, india is starting to get more involved aswell.

[u/stumpdawg]

Is this your sole line of work?

[u/SneakySig → u/stumpdawg]

No.

I started botting purely to make my own gold, this was back in 04/05. Eventually one bot turned into two then three, sold to guildies, irl friends ect.

Then one day i just thought screw it let me see what 100g is going for. I never looked back from that.

I work from home from my pc so i just do it for the money on the side.

[u/pioupiou1211 → u/SneakySig]

I saw that you’re from Europe. Do you pay taxes on this income? Such a steady income cannot go unnoticed I would assume.

[u/SneakySig → u/pioupiou1211]

No.

I only work with cryptocurrency, thus dont declare the income.

[u/maximnumber16]

Based on the size of your operation and the number of other botters out there, what percentage of the community do you think is buying gold? Is it a few individuals buying 90% of the gold, or is it 50% of the community buying small amounts of gold? Or in other words, how hypocritical is the community when it comes to gold buying, a lot or a little?

[u/SneakySig → u/maximnumber16]

More people buy gold than you would think. Whether it be a one off for a mount, a couple times to get some gear at 60, or a full out splurge for GDKPs

What alot of people forget is people playing this game were broke kids back in the day, time rich and cash poor, id say now its the opposite.

I wouldnt want to hazard a guess at % of population, but certainly more than “a few people”

[u/Ricb76 → u/SneakySig]

I was in a hardcore guild in classic / tbc. People just kept on finding cash, where did you get that 10k from jimbobgodx? Did you find a patch of black lotuses? wink wink.

[u/SneakySig → u/Ricb76]

This, lol.

[u/Cwarush → u/SneakySig]

This is what I've been saying for soong now. People keep saying blizzard and the community killed classic wow but it's not that.

Times have changed, people playing classic now are usually 30+ and have more expendable income than time.

[u/SneakySig → u/Cwarush]

Thats my take on it aswell.

[u/panderman7]

1. For when you attempt hardcore bots, will they buy mounts? Do bots buy mounts at all anyways? And does this sink your profits a lot or make gains much higher?

2. Do you pay for a bottling software or do you write it yourself?

[u/SneakySig → u/panderman7]

Typically on release on a fresh realm every single gold piece matters. So no, you dont buy mounts, or gear, or potions. Your entire goal is to make more gold while the price stays high, thats for both normal and hardcore fresh.

The programs i use arent publically availible. And i have people i know far smarter than me to make big changes if needed, for a few ofc. Generally i manage and tweak them myself.

[u/viper823 → u/SneakySig]

Will you try to rush to level 60 so you can bot higher level instances or does it make more sense to rush to level 30 for example and bot low level instances?

Assuming there won’t be paid level boosts in hardcore, I’m wondering how you see investing your time the first month to get characters to high enough levels to successfully use as bots? Will you buy accounts to use for botting or will you level the characters yourself?

Thanks for doing this ama!

[u/SneakySig → u/viper823]

Great question.

And the honest answer is i have no idea. And i dont think many people do even in the scene right now. My experience tells me long term botting hc will be lucrative, whether that be farming SM on a 60, farming sfk on a 30 due to the time it takes 30>60 i have no idea.

But im itching to find out ;)

[u/WendigoCrossing]

Have you ever thought about making an entire raid of bots other than yourself so that you could essentially play WoW as a single player RPG but with group content?

[u/SneakySig → u/WendigoCrossing]

Would love to.

But i reckon id be banned before the end boss due to the reports lol.

[u/Desperate_Passage_35]

What instance is most profitable for botting? Or what's most profitable?

[u/SneakySig → u/Desperate_Passage_35]

Depends on the class, expansion, whether a boost can or cant be had, what version the game is running ect.

But right now id say botanica.

[u/skye1013 → u/SneakySig]

BOTanica... it's in the name

[u/Kaim95]

I see that you run 60 accounts at a time. How often do you transfer your gold to some other account to avoid being banned.
Do you keep all the gold at one account? Or you spread it across.
And how the trading works, do you have one dedicated account for gold trading where you transfer requested gold and leave it with 0 gold in case you get banned?

[u/SneakySig → u/Kaim95]

The key is to never leave a large supply just hanging around. The most time intensive aspect of botting is the selling of the gold. You always want to keep it moving. Ideally for the price you want, but if i have heaps on hand ill fire sale it.

Noone wants to be banned with a potential $XXX amount of gold on the account.

Also their is no central bank as it were, 60 bots will be about 15 servers being botted give or take 5. So you dont pool it.

[u/NeverAgain42 → u/SneakySig]

This sounds hilariously like street level drug dealing.

[u/SneakySig → u/NeverAgain42]

Haha i read it back and it sounds like im peddling meth 😂

[u/Dilaudid2meetU → u/SneakySig]

“Time to bot Jesse!”

[u/MasRemlap]

What do you care about more, $2000-3000 a month or what Reddit Dadgamers think?

[u/SneakySig → u/MasRemlap]

Gonna plead the 5th

[u/HempHarvest → u/SneakySig]

I read in another comment that you are European, I think it's funny that this specific American saying has made its way to you.

[u/SneakySig → u/HempHarvest]

To many years on reddit i guess :)

[u/swingingmylegs]

Do you just farm raw gold in instances or do you sell dungeon boosts to low levels? Also what creative ways have players grieved your bots?

[u/pioupiou1211]

Is it actually more profitable to buy the token for your bots’ game time now?

[u/SneakySig → u/pioupiou1211]

Depends on the gold price i can get for selling my raw gold, also i dont pay $15 a month per account, more like $3 and change, so no, selling the raw gold atleast for me will be more profitable.

[u/harkit]

Yeah, people thinking that only chinese setup farm bot when its that easy to scale and can generate decent income even in devloped country always blew my mind.

[u/SneakySig → u/harkit]

Its a common missconception for sure.

[u/tryfor34]

What kinda of infrastructure are you running 25 bots on?

[u/SneakySig → u/tryfor34]

Go back into my comment history, but with additional programs you can fit 20 clients on a 3090 i7 rig and still do normal stuff in the background. The main gui will tell you as/when you need to go into a specific game client.

[u/KorahRahtahmahh]

Why do you say that dealing with 100+ bots requires more people.. what is your actual input once the program is set and fully operational?

[u/SneakySig → u/KorahRahtahmahh]

Ok so 100 clients.

Thats 100 toons i need to keep an eye on through the gui. One is getting trolled? I need to step in. One gets dissconnected and the relogger bugs? I have to step in.

Bot 87 is now level X i need to move it to location Y to continue. Bot 12 just got a whisper asking if its a bot, i need to step in.

Basically running that many means your almost constantly messing around with small problems, thats before youve begun selling the gold, which is alot more time intensive.

[u/KorahRahtahmahh → u/SneakySig]

Bot 12 just got a whisper asking if its a bot, i need to step in.

Whats your go to excuse to try and save yourself from a report?

Thank you for the reply btw, very interesting!

[u/SneakySig → u/KorahRahtahmahh]

Depends what the whisper is tbh! Some i ignore, others i make excuses haha.

[u/k1dsmoke → u/SneakySig]

I’m surprised it’s even worth it to step in.