Classified documents found at Pence's Indiana home

[u/quipd]

http://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/politics/pence-classified-documents-fbi/index.html

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[u/QueBienTevez]

I should check my closet for classified documents

[u/prof_the_doom → u/QueBienTevez]

Apparently if you were in the White House or Congress, yes, you should.

[u/Vorpishly → u/prof_the_doom]

Seriously, everyone had/has a security clearance. I wish we could make the distinction that not everyone is willing to sell out their government. Yes he had classified documents, and when they were found they self reported, however only 1 man had documents taken for a criminal reason, and when asked lied multiple times, and tried to cover it up.

[u/DenikaMae → u/Vorpishly]

During the last administration, there were at least several people in the executive branch that did not pass the clearance check to have Top Secret+ Clearance. It was side-stepped.

[u/Mind_taker84 → u/Vorpishly]

Wellll..... i guess i should go ahead and get rid of some of those red and yellow marked folders.

[u/Uncynical_Diogenes → u/Mind_taker84]

Just declassify them with your mind!

[u/bentzu → u/Uncynical_Diogenes]

I covered mine up with old utility bills

[u/MyDoorsGoLikeThis → u/Vorpishly]

The cover up is usually worse than the crime. In the case of Florida Man president, it’s proof of intent with much bigger implications.

[u/Elegyjay → u/MyDoorsGoLikeThis]

And suspicion that those classified folders once had contents which were given to a state like Russia or Iran...

[u/TheFakeSlimShady123 → u/Elegyjay]

Nah it was the Saudis I'm pretty sure.

[u/say592 → u/TheFakeSlimShady123]

Follow the money right into Jared Kushner's bank account.

[u/Rizzpooch → u/Vorpishly]

Some a-hole whose name I’m not going to learn said on Fox News that the only reason to keep secret documents is to show or sell them to foreign adversaries. Aside from being ridiculous on its face, this person apparently somehow doesn’t see that that would apply to Trump as well

[u/Assertion_Denier → u/Rizzpooch]

Cucker L. Ratson?

[u/ianjm → u/prof_the_doom]

I took the tour once, does that count?

[u/prof_the_doom → u/ianjm]

The FBI will be at your house shortly to search for documents.

[u/GreenStrong → u/ianjm]

Just go ahead and plead guilty to mishandling classified documents.

[u/Runswithturnbucklez → u/prof_the_doom]

I took a “do not remove” tag off my mattress. Should I be worried

[u/dr_cl_aphra → u/Runswithturnbucklez]

You just admitted to it Reddit! Of course you should worry, you absolute lunatic!

Run! Run now!

[u/prospectre → u/dr_cl_aphra]

Shit, is this becoming like another Candle Jack thing? Like, if say I sneezed in a public building I might have inadvertently taken classified doc-

[u/dr_cl_aphra → u/prospectre]

Oh shit, oh shit, ohshitohshitohshit….

[u/GabbiKat → u/Runswithturnbucklez]

Believe it or not, straight to jail.

[u/alficles → u/Runswithturnbucklez]

That tag is not to be removed, except by the consumer. You must now eat your mattress.

[u/Ferral_Cat → u/Runswithturnbucklez]

Rip

[u/MoogProg → u/QueBienTevez]

I just looked under the sink and found what seems to be an email server full of Hunter Clinton fan fiction.

[u/Exciting-Ad-5705 → u/MoogProg]

Hunter bidens magnum dong x emails fan fiction

[u/actual_griffin → u/QueBienTevez]

It is just a matter of time until all of us have classified documents.

[u/DylonNotNylon → u/actual_griffin]

We are all classified documents on this blessed day

[u/JayCaesar12 → u/DylonNotNylon]

The real classified documents are the friends we made along the way.

[u/oldjadedhippie → u/JayCaesar12]

In the future, everyone will have classified documents for 15 minutes

[u/Osiris32 → u/oldjadedhippie]

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their classified documents.

[u/Erebus212 → u/Osiris32]

Kids getting into arguments in elementary school “OH YEAH!! Well MY dad’s classified documents were a higher level than YOUR dad’s classified documents”

[u/genericusername123 → u/DylonNotNylon]

Speak for yourself

[u/cbbuntz → u/genericusername123]

I am all classified documents on this blessed day

[u/Cdub7791 → u/cbbuntz]

Pastor says classified documents are the devil's sticky notes.

[u/ccoville → u/Cdub7791]

It seems like nowadays people know more about classified documents than stuff they haven't learned about yet.

[u/TheUpperHand → u/QueBienTevez]

If you go deep enough in the closet, you'll find Pence and half the GOP.

[u/PerniciousPeyton → u/TheUpperHand]

I looked in the closet and got a few labeled TS/SCI but there are coffee stains all over them. Does that affect their classification status? At any rate, I’ll need to check with Trump and see if they’ve been telekinetically declassified.

[u/Dear-Bandicoot7087 → u/TheUpperHand]

I mean if they think that homosexuality is a legit choice, and they have to actively choose and try to not be gay everyday, then… yeah. That’s pretty deep in the closet.

[u/Splitfingers → u/QueBienTevez]

All I found was a forest and a faun. Should I be worried?

[u/ebow77 → u/Splitfingers]

Better sell out your siblings just to be safe.

[u/Splitfingers → u/ebow77]

Do you think someone would buy them for sweets? I could use some good candy right about now.

[u/anna-nomally12 → u/Splitfingers]

I’ll tell you what. Eating it as an adult for the first time is a fucking let down.

I mean logically war, sugar rations, British dietary preferences, I get all that. But emotionally, it was like learning Santa was t real

[u/recovering_spaz]

It is not yet clear what the documents are related to or their level of sensitivity or classification. Pence’s team plans to notify Congress on Tuesday.

Pence asked his lawyer to conduct the search of his home out of an abundance of caution, and the attorney began going through four boxes stored at Pence’s house last week, finding a small number of documents with classified markings, the sources said.

It seems like he's trying to do the right thing. Whether that's because it was a legitimate mistake or he was caught and is trying to soften the penalty remains to be seen.

[u/TechyDad → u/recovering_spaz]

I'm willing to give Pence the benefit of the doubt as far as intent goes here. I gave this benefit of the doubt to Biden as well. They both seem to be cooperating and trying to ferret out any classified documents to turn them over to the proper government department.

Contrast this with Trump who refused to give the documents back, refused to allow a search, lied about there not being any more documents, and to this day is demanding that the FBI give him the documents back - calling them his "property."

I won't agree with Pence's politics and would never vote for him. On this point, though, he seems to be doing the right thing.

[u/stares_at_rain → u/TechyDad]

Me too. I doubt that they do their own packing when they leave office. Someone put everything into file boxes and they moved them home and likely never looked at them again, then cooperated with the searches. This is completely different from Trump's behavior.

[u/Redbaron1960 → u/stares_at_rain]

It seems to me that the tracking process for sensitive documents is lacking. Our local librarian knows where all the books are but these documents seem to be floating around with no one keeping track. The system failed

[u/FabianN → u/Redbaron1960]

Which adds to the trump side of it, they had a list of documents they wanted back from trump.

[u/Redbaron1960 → u/FabianN]

Yes, they knew he had some but it just looks like tracking needs to be tightened up given Biden and Pence has stuff no one seemed to be missing.

[u/LeftDave → u/Redbaron1960]

Keep in mind classified and national secrets aren't the same thing. If Biden planned a surprise party for Obama, the fact that it was secret and he was VP would make any related documents classified. If he still had those documents in a dusty box today, he'd be in illegal possession of classified documents technically but it's be of no consequence and nobody would be tracking it. At the other end of the scale would be a briefing on a new prototype superweapon DARPA was working on.

The latter is why Trump is in trouble and why the National Archives knew they were missing. The former is likely what Biden and Pence found and this is only a headline because they're being honest and telling us they have them.

[u/zim1985 → u/LeftDave]

Let's be honest it's only a headline because Trump had all his drama about it. This stuff with documents happens literally all the time for the exact reasons you described (the docs aren't important just made by someone who is) and likely isn't the news story people want it to be.

[u/maybe_little_pinch → u/Redbaron1960]

It's likely these are mainly documents that weren't very sensitive in nature that they needed to be tracked. Trump got in hot water because he did have documents that were tracked. And yanno. Refusing the give them back.

[u/barlow_straker → u/stares_at_rain]

Been there. Moving out of my cubicle at work last minute, I've done the whole arm sweep into a box and sort it out later.

[u/Peppermynt42 → u/TechyDad]

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to any individual, who is or was holding an elected office, that voluntarily goes through their private materials and works with the authorities to return those documents to their rightful place. I however do not extend that same benefit to those who try to deny, obstruct and require warrants to return similar documents.

[u/rabidstoat → u/Peppermynt42]

Yeah, it sounds like when he saw Trump and Biden both had classified documents found he decided on his own that he should do a sweep of his own house.

I imagine Obama and Dubya and (Dick) Cheney and Al Gore and others probably have some documents they shouldn't mixed into storage boxes somewhere.

[u/AuryxTheDutchman → u/rabidstoat]

Yeah, would probably not be a bad idea for document searches of private residences to become standard procedure when officials leave office.

[u/janethefish → u/TechyDad]

Trump got the benefit of the doubt too. It took six months of fucking around to get a criminal referral.

[u/pussycatlolz → u/janethefish]

Well, also the lying. So... Less of a benefit of a doubt for him after that.

[u/LithoSlam → u/janethefish]

Didn't they ask for over a year before they got the search warrant?

[u/medstudenthowaway → u/recovering_spaz]

Yeah it’s frustrating to me how people are pointing this out in defense of trump. But the issue isn’t the documents. It’s the refusal to comply with the freaking government. It seems so suspicious. Like it makes it seem intentional rather than an accident.

[u/Pandamana → u/recovering_spaz]

he was caught and is trying to soften the penalty remains to be seen

He literally returned the documents as he became aware of them. That's not "getting caught". Turning yourself in voluntarily is the opposite of getting caught.

[u/Uptown-Dog → u/recovering_spaz]

This. I see Pence as lawful evil. Unlike Trump's chaotic evil. I doubt that Pence took these documents with the intent on keeping classified documents, I would expect that this was just accidental. Although can we have a moment to reflect on the fact that none of our top politicians seem to really give much if a fuck about being cautious with classified documents?

[u/politicsfuckingsucks]

This is getting so ridiculous. Check every past president and VP's house apparently.

[u/illit1 → u/politicsfuckingsucks]

haha, you think it's limited to presidents and VPs.

[u/AnalSoapOpera → u/illit1]

Someone check R Kelly’s closet!

[u/danthebiker1981 → u/AnalSoapOpera]

We should probably do that regardless.

[u/kombatunit → u/danthebiker1981]

We should probably do that regardless.

Not without gloves.

[u/Arsis82 → u/kombatunit]

And a hazmat suit

[u/MachineElfOnASheIf → u/Arsis82]

I dont know that we need all that over what's probably a minor problem.

[u/DadBodybuilder → u/[deleted]]

Drip drip drip

[u/RoboticKittenMeow → u/DadBodybuilder]

This is the remix edition, of the song about pissin

[u/sax6romeo → u/RoboticKittenMeow]

The only thing to make my life complete is when I turn your face into a toilet seat

[u/WhyIHateTheInternet → u/sax6romeo]

I wanna piss on you

[u/DonaldFailboat → u/AnalSoapOpera]

Eminem already cleaned out HIS closet so we know we won't find anything there. R Kelly definitly hiding something.

[u/hiimred2 → u/DonaldFailboat]

All we know is that he was in the process of cleaning out his closet, not that he completed the task, so the FBI should go help just in case.

[u/ChopperTownUSA → u/AnalSoapOpera]

I think he’s trapped in there.

[u/ichorNet → u/ChopperTownUSA]

No, R Kelly only gets trapped in other people’s closets, silly!

[u/Guyincognito4269 → u/ichorNet]

Check Stan's closet then. Who knows what he left in there?

[u/Ganon2012 → u/Guyincognito4269]

Dad! Tom Cruise won't come out of the closet!

[u/domin8_1976 → u/AnalSoapOpera]

Nobody in here....oh wait....Tom Cruise, get out of the closet.

[u/bappypawedotter → u/illit1]

The point is to flood the field so we can't tell the difference between what Trump did and what normal people with security clearances do.

[u/PandaMuffin1 → u/bappypawedotter]

The difference is when National Archives and DOJ ask you to return documents and you obstruct doing that.

Sadly, many people won't make that distinction.

[u/bappypawedotter → u/PandaMuffin1]

Well I know that. And you know that. But there are millions of dumbasses too stupid and/or too stubburn to understand this distinction.

[u/PandaMuffin1 → u/bappypawedotter]

This is true. Many media outlets are more than happy to help with the confusion as well.

[u/Returd4 → u/bappypawedotter]

This, this is literally the goal. This has always been common place imho however selling them to the Saudis was never normal

[u/Thnik → u/Returd4]

I would hope that the average American can see the difference between 5 pages forgotten at a private home (or a few boxes that are immediately returned as in this story) and a couple dozen boxes of top secret documents that should never leave a secure location being in a random room of Trump's club, boxes that were taken days before the end of his presidency and he fought not to return them... but I have had no faith in the American public since 2016.

[u/Nemtrac5 → u/Thnik]

With camera footage of boxes being taken into and out of a photocopy room

[u/TheTeenageOldman → u/politicsfuckingsucks]

Going to Millard Fillmore summer home this weekend. Will look around.

[u/pushing_past_the_red → u/TheTeenageOldman]

And I'm going to Mallard Fillmore's house to look for classified duckuments.

^i'msosorry

[u/lovesducks → u/pushing_past_the_red]

Those are mine. Stay away. Top secret.

[u/Drain01 → u/politicsfuckingsucks]

Is it ridiculous, or is it to be expected?

Elected officials review thousands or tens of thousands of files during their time in office. Things get misplaced or misfiled, our elected officials are just human beings, after all. This shouldn't be a scandal or a partisan issue. If someone finds files they shouldn't have and they immediately return them, that is the correct and adult thing to do. I'd rather they be encouraged to return the docs rather then risk a more serious security breach trying to hide a "scandal".

[u/Bobmanbob1 → u/Drain01]

This. Oh shit, I found this, here take it and fiile it, sorry I fucked up. Just don't keep them as "souvenirs".

[u/BurnChao → u/Bobmanbob1]

His whole "I kept empty folders as souvenirs" is him trying to explain away that he sold/gave the info away, and that's why they're empty.

[u/iforgotmymittens → u/Drain01]

our elected officials are just human beings, after all

And also Ted Cruz is there

[u/Drain01 → u/iforgotmymittens]

Fair

[u/xDulmitx → u/Drain01]

Exactly. There should also be a cursory search of outgoing politicians documents and residences. Nothing super deep, just a quick check to make sure there aren't a bunch of memos or briefs tucked into a box from when they were working. Hiding super important/sensitive documents is an issue, but most of this stuff isn't going to be that. How many printouts get filed away in a cabinet and dumped into a box at the end of term.

[u/Drain01 → u/xDulmitx]

Yeah, like that would be fine. You have a team of lawyers or FBI agents do a search of personal documents on the day they leave office then again like six months later just to try and find files they should return. I bet most politicians would be fine with that.

[u/Brooklynxman → u/Drain01]

I bet most politicians would be fine with that.

I bet about 50% stamp their feet.

[u/Drain01 → u/Brooklynxman]

Suprisingly, aside from Trump, I bet most republican politicians go along with it too. There's a reason Pence turned these docs over instead of hiding or destroying them, he either respects their classification, or he doesn't want to deal with the fallout of being found with them after he tried to hide it.

[u/Brooklynxman → u/Drain01]

My problem with this is the Freedom Caucus exists to worship and appease Trump and Republicans exist to oppose Democrats, so unless Republicans propose this its not happening, and if we wait for Republicans to propose good policy we'll be waiting a loooooooooooong time.

[u/ViolaNguyen → u/Drain01]

If someone finds files they shouldn't have and they immediately return them, that is the correct and adult thing to do.

The "liberal" media are doing a crappy job of emphasizing this.

It's like an overdue library book. Most people have on at some point, and it's not the end of the world to have that happen. When you're given notice of it, you return the book.

Trump decided to stomp his feet, complain it wasn't fair, and then try to keep the book.

And now he and his brainwashed mob want everyone else with overdue library books to be raked over the coals because he was.

He's just not capable of understanding that his lack of cooperation was the problem.

[u/HauntedCemetery → u/ViolaNguyen]

It was a damn sight farther than lack of cooperation. Trump had a bunch of his stolen files moved to try to hide them from being reclaimed by the government, to the point that the FBI had to show up to collect them unannounced because they rightfully believed he would have stashed them elsewhere, again.

[u/Brooklynxman → u/ViolaNguyen]

Trump decided to stomp his feet, complain it wasn't fair, and then try to keep the book.

He also had some of the most sensitive classified material including stuff classified by act of Congress. We don't know what Pence had, but right now if Biden had out library books Trump had original 1700's manuscripts. Also, some might still be missing, and possibly even sold.

[u/elconquistador1985 → u/ViolaNguyen]

Yep, they're framing Biden, Pence, and Trump as the same things. Huge favor for Trump, who actively tried to hide the documents he had.

[u/forzagoodofdapeople → u/elconquistador1985]

Yup. And given the context, I’m assuming Pence and Biden were daily briefings which, while technically classified, were brought to them at their current location for their review and someone else was responsible for their destruction/etc.

Trump had things which were (reportedly) removed from a SCIF, which for anyone else would be a one-way ticket to the bad kind of prison while you awaited trial and further investigations were done to identify intent, damage, etc.

[u/beamrider → u/forzagoodofdapeople]

Worse: plenty of evidence that Trump got those documents from a SCIF *specifically* for the purpose of having access to them for personal reasons after he left office.

[u/MAMark1 → u/Drain01]

All these stories about Biden and Pence have shown is that these documents are not well tracked. Only the Trump story has clear evidence of knowingly keeping them and then hiding that fact.

I agree that we can't just make someone having classified documents a scandal. It is all about the "why do they still have them" and "do they try to keep them even when asked to return them".

[u/zeCrazyEye → u/Drain01]

Also a lot of classified documents are just their own schedules.

[u/obaterista93 → u/Drain01]

That's my interpretation of the situation as well.

The documents may have ended up at your private residence appropriately, assuming the proper chain of command and paper-trail was followed.

Things get looked over and forgotten, it happens. But when it's found out that you have something you shouldn't have, you can either offer complete transparency to help rectify the situation or you can do super sketchy things like swear that you totally don't have it, and then move them somewhere else until finally the FBI comes and finds it.

THAT was my issue with Trump. Not that he had them at Mar-a-Lago, but that upon discovery of them he was completely non-compliant and non-cooperative.

[u/ILikeLenexa → u/politicsfuckingsucks]

Is that why Jimmy Carter built so many houses?

You can't check them all!

[u/lacronicus → u/politicsfuckingsucks]

It's not that surprising.

They have tons of documents attached to them, more than any single person can track by hand. They don't move any of it themselves, they get other people to do it. By the nature of their jobs, they're constantly moving those documents.

This clearly needs to be fixed, but it's a fundamentally different kind of problem than your run of the mill "if i took classified docs home, I'd be in huge trouble" case.

[u/shrinkwrappedzebra → u/lacronicus]

Yes and for that reason I think the only factor that would elevate it into being egregious would be to refuse to return them upon discovery, and 1000x more egregious if refusing to return them when subpoenad for them, like Trump did. Pence and Biden's situations are wrong too, but understandable to an extent for the reasons you pointed out. Unfortunately pro-Trump media is trying to muddy the waters by acting like these were all the same thing.

[u/jdmorgenstern]

I'd give anything to be a fly on Pence's head right now.

[u/bahweepgranah → u/jdmorgenstern]

Now we know what it was doing

[u/summerchilde → u/jdmorgenstern]

Forgot all about that!

[u/rathat → u/summerchilde]

Beck was great as Pence. My favorite quote is something kinda like

"Hi, I'm Mike Pence, you may have heard of me from the sentence 'Even if we get rid of Trump, we still have Mike Pence'"

Edit: Found it https://youtu.be/H4qvO0StKto

The full quote was actually

"I'm vice president Mike Pence. Most of you know me from the sentence, 'Even if Trump was removed, we'd still be stuck with Mike Pence.'"

[u/VaguelyArtistic]

AUGUST 20, 2022:

Pence says he didn’t leave office with any classified material

[u/epraider → u/VaguelyArtistic]

In the cases of Biden and Pence, I do believe that most of these are cases where things were just filed and packed away where they should not have been, copies of correspondence and low sensitivity information that hasn’t really been looked for. And probably the case for a good number of Trump’s documents as well.

What differs between the two of them and Trump, is that the National Archives and the FBI came looking for certain highly sensitive documents they knew Trump took, Trump’s team handed some over but lied about having the others. We know they lied because one member of Trump’s legal team or inner circle reported that they had lied, and security footage exists of them relocating the documents after the initial interview.

Biden’s team on the other hand, self reported the documents they found immediately and have been cooperating with all search and hand over requests.

People will try to both-sides this, but there is a difference between the severity of crimes here.

[u/browster → u/epraider]

It is my firm belief that Trump took the documents with the intent to profit from them. Biden and Pence took them without knowing, and just left them in storage.

My evidence: Trump is a shitbag who would do exactly this, and his behavior since this all happened is consistent with someone who's doing this.

[u/anna-nomally12 → u/browster]

I’m not even sure they “took” them. Depending on what they are, it’s quite possible Biden or pence (because politics aside, they both took their jobs as VP seriously) originated the documents while at home and working.

[u/Send-More-Coffee → u/anna-nomally12]

"So I was at home, writing a draft of what became the memo to another head of state about the upcoming visit and what I wanted to accomplish (obviously, this would be classified correspondence). It was late, I needed to eat and sleep, and in the morning, I had to clear my desk for a meeting and just scooped up everything and threw it into a folder for later sorting. Never got to the sorting part. Whoops."

[u/failed_novelty → u/Send-More-Coffee]

Where is my fainting couch?! The scandal.

[u/Send-More-Coffee → u/failed_novelty]

4 years later:

FORMER VICE-PRESIDENT ADMITS TO CARELESS HANDLING OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS

Talking Head #1: "In the army they teach you to do the small things right so that you have the ethic to do the big things right. This is instilled into every recruit. His cavalier actions concerning classified documents disgrace the men and women who serve our great nation."

Talking Head #2: "That may be a harsh, but I think the real question is Are the American people going to be satisfied with this "trust me I'm honest" policy from our politicians?

Talking Head #1: "The only honest thing a politician could say is "I'm a liar". Anyways, that's all the time we have for this national crisis which compromises our national security and lets our enemies come knocking on our door, we'll be right back after our sponsors."

Commercial : "Do you have anxiety? Are you worried about your future? We at Forgetisuticals LLC. might have the solution to your pain..."

[u/Bullyoncube → u/browster]

I’m not sure that Trump can actually create “intent“. He’s more like a raccoon that has an instinct to break into your trashcan. He’s hungry, he’s wandering around the neighborhood, but he doesn’t actually intend to eat your trash. He just does. Like a meth addict, it’s not something he can control. You are irrelevant, and ethics/morality is just not a thing in his head.

[u/VaguelyArtistic → u/epraider]

I'm kind of glad that Pence had some documents, too. I genuinely don't think Pence did this maliciously. He'd give me the death penalty for having an abortion but I do think he takes this kind of thing seriously. And now it really helps separate Biden from Trump even more. It seems clear that this a an overall problem so hopefully it will get fixed.

[u/elconquistador1985 → u/VaguelyArtistic]

The more this happens, the more I think Trump's deliberate mishandling of classified documents gets lost in the weeds.

Media isn't presenting them as different. Media is presenting them as the same, just "classified documents found". Trump actually committed crimes, and he's going to get away with it because of the media presenting it all the same.

[u/Tombot3000 → u/elconquistador1985]

Media does have a partisan bias in many cases, but it absolutely pales in comparison to their bias towards conflict. Both sides'ing the issue fosters conflicts, which get clicks, which get revenue.

They're absolutely failing their duties as the so-called Fourth Estate for a quick buck.

[u/spartagnann → u/epraider]

Trump is also STILL claiming they belong to him and they should be returned, which is something his oatmeal brain would come up with. Nobody else is claiming that and are cooperating giving them back.

[u/ivesaidway2much → u/VaguelyArtistic]

At this point, I don't think it really matters anymore, politically. There are probably classified documents at the Obama, Bush, and Clinton residences, as well as at all of their vice presidents' homes. If Trump is going to be indicted, it's not going to be for illegally storing classified records. It's going to be for obstruction of justice.

[u/prof_the_doom → u/ivesaidway2much]

It was always going to be about the obstruction, regardless of what people may or may not have said at the time.

[u/Iwasborninafactory_ → u/prof_the_doom]

I think the nature of the documents is as important, if not more important. Trump had nuclear secrets and info about spies. We need to know if he was selling them. I don't think for one second Pence or Biden were selling them.

[u/sixwax → u/Iwasborninafactory_]

It’s almost as if normalizing ‘classified documents at someone’s home’ was the objective.

Yeah, the sht that 45 walked off with (and where it likely went) is *waaaaay beyond the pale and should NOT be normalized.

[u/DangKilla → u/sixwax]

I think you nailed it. Pence had his lawyers check his house.

[u/BigBennP → u/ivesaidway2much]

It is very much worth pointing out that the law does prescribe different punishments based on the intent.

There is one offense for carelessly handling classified material, which is essentially a negligence standard.

There is a different offense for intentionally removing classified material from a secure location and or sharing it with someone who you know is not clear to receive it.

Based on publicly reported facts if Biden or Pence had been random mid-level government employees with security clearances and been found to have classified documents in their personal homes, that could have been grounds for firing or losing their clearances but probably not a criminal prosecution.

The facts in Trump's case demonstrate something a little different.

[u/nychuman → u/BigBennP]

This nuance is lost on 100% of Trump supporters.

[u/The-Mech-Guy → u/nychuman]

"nuance"? Now your just makin up werds!!

- maga

[u/legitimate_rapper → u/The-Mech-Guy]

That sounds like one of those French words.

[u/DrDerpberg → u/nychuman]

This and any other nuance is lost on them.

[u/VaguelyArtistic → u/ivesaidway2much]

If Trump is going to be indicted, it’s not going to be for illegally storing classified records. It’s going to be for obstruction of justice.

I agree 100%, this was probably true all along because the obstruction is the much, much easier case to prove.

Frankly, it's probably not a bad thing that this has turned out to be endemic so we can fix this problem.

[u/chcampb → u/ivesaidway2much]

To be clear, the Espionage Act describes a number of cases in which having classified materials is illegal.

Knowingly having them and not returning them is illegal under the act.

Accidentally having them and returning them immediately would require that they had been retained through gross negligence (ie, intentionally disregarding a policy or procedure, or ordering someone to do the same). So none of the other presidents, or VPs, or Biden is in any risk as long as they followed procedure to the best of their knowledge at the time, and also, returned the documents once they were found.

Trumo's in deep shit because he stood there and proudly declared that he didn't have to follow the law, when doing so, was explicitly against the law he said he was not required to follow. Let's see how that works out.

[u/rukh999 → u/chcampb]

That and the obstruction of an investigation and destroying government records. Those are the other two things that were on the warrant.

[u/HGpennypacker → u/ivesaidway2much]

I don't think it really matters anymore, politically

Unfortunately that's true, Trump's mishandling of documents is now lumped in with Biden and Pence which is exactly what conservative media wanted.

[u/jpk195 → u/HGpennypacker]

I don’t think they wanted Pence. This undercuts their only real attack line on Biden - he was VP.

[u/AnalSoapOpera → u/ivesaidway2much]

Hillary Clinton must be pissed. All the buttery males out fake outrage the Republicans had and lost her the election

[u/AcademicPublius]

This is a pretty good example of why the case against Trump was always more complicated than "he has the documents, go get him".

It's also the resistance to turning them back in, the declaration that he didn't have more, and where they ended up getting stored (and the lack of security there).

[u/TechyDad → u/AcademicPublius]

And Trump trying to demand that the FBI to give back "his personal property" when referring to the classified documents. Biden and Pence clearly see the classified documents as government property that they accidentally took. Trump sees them as souvenirs that he can do with as he pleases because he was President once.

[u/kazetoame → u/TechyDad]

It’s also the level of classification that those documents are. Trump had documents that should never left a certain room, let alone the White House.

[u/FlattopJr → u/kazetoame]

It's cool guys, he declassified 'em just by thinking about it!👍👍

[u/Luna8586 → u/AcademicPublius]

I'm sure you can go to any elected officials home and find classified documents. Most of them probably had aides pack up their office and some documents got in there. It's not great, but both Biden and Pence are cooperating. I genuinely don't think either of them took something purposely. The National Archives didn't even know they were missing which shows how low level the documents probably were.

Trump took more documents that Biden and Pence combined. He knew he took them. The National Archives knew they were missing which speaks to how highly classified they are. And Trump is actively obstructing. Who knows who he showed the documents to. If he faces anything, it will be for obstruction.

[u/HerrMilkmann → u/AcademicPublius]

Don't forget claiming the FBI planted them

[u/TheKevinShow → u/AcademicPublius]

Yeah, you can’t really compare what Trump did to Pence’s lawyers immediately (as far as we know) notifying the authorities and turning them all (as far as we know) in.

Yes, it’s very likely that Pence shouldn’t have had those documents but at least he responded properly, as far as we know.

[u/logicalnoise]

NPR had a good report on how most classified documents don't need that label, but there's far more trouble when a document isn't classified than when it is and shouldn't be. So the people who handle these often will make them classified just to CYA. That said Trump had nuclear secrets in his house and pulled a LOT of BS. Everyone else has cooperated appropiately.

[u/jafomatic → u/logicalnoise]

don't forget the HUMINT sources that started dying --which, if I recall, is what caused the scrutiny in the first place?

referring to all of these, at everyone's homes, as "classified documents" is really underselling the level of severity these materials really carry. That and, of course, the obstruction.

[u/Jump_Yossarian_ → u/logicalnoise]

This the one?

Fresh Air: Is The U.S. Gov't Designating Too Many Documents As Classified'?

[u/logicalnoise → u/Jump_Yossarian_]

Yeah that's it.

[u/DigNitty → u/Jump_Yossarian_]

IIRC they said 3 things are marked classified every minute.

[u/prof_the_doom → u/DigNitty]

And some of those are retroactive... who's gonna go check their desk for something that's classified today that wasn't last week?

[u/Not_A_Crackpot → u/prof_the_doom]

This is one part of the problem and without knowing what was found at Pence/Biden houses it's hard to say. These could literally be Unclassified documents that were retroactively classified, see Secretary Clinton's emails.

I cannot get excited about Pence or Biden's reveals as they have cooperated and it seems like this is just part of the onerous classification process at large.

Trump committed obstruction of justice though, it doesn't matter why he committed it, he committed it. People really need to separate this in their heads.

With that being said, clearly we need an overhaul of the whole classification system because this is super embarrassing.

[u/J4k0b42]

Has anyone checked in on Jimmy Carter? There are a lot of possible houses he could have left documents in.

[u/CatVideoFest → u/J4k0b42]

When he started his new Habitat for Humanity offshoot, Confidential for Cohabitation, I was already suspicious.

[u/OrganizerMowgli → u/CatVideoFest]

peels back the floorboards

So this is what really happened in 'Nam

[u/Alexhasskills → u/J4k0b42]

What about Reagan???

[u/NBCspec]

At this point, I'm wondering who doesn't have some.

[u/M00n]

I don't like that this is whitewashing Trumps illegal holding and hiding of documents and refusing to return them... and missing documents in folders and some of his documents held sensitive compartmented information which could cause grave damage to national security. And nuclear secrets...

[u/petethefreeze → u/M00n]

It isn't. Trump was known to have them and refused to surrender them. Apparently it is common for documentation to be "left behind". The real question is what happens afterwards and how does the person that retained the documentation behave. Trump's situation is still waaaayyyyyyyy worse because he deceived and refused with intent.

[u/der_innkeeper → u/petethefreeze]

Exactly this.

Biden, Pence are cooperative.

Trump is not.

Thank you, Mr. Pence, for providing a shining GOP example of what should happen.

Now, the case for charging Trump just became that much easier.

[u/c0horst → u/der_innkeeper]

Trump is pathologically incapable of ever admitting he was wrong or mistaken about literally anything. He couldn't simply cooperate and say he didn't know he couldn't take them or something... he had to start talking about conspiracy theories to frame him and how he declassified it all with his mind. It's pathetic.

[u/RUB_MY_RHUBARB → u/der_innkeeper]

Sadly this distinction will not matter at all in the court of public opinion. Because the public is largely stupid and fed a heavy dose of disinformation

[u/Vulnox → u/RUB_MY_RHUBARB]

Well and it doesn’t help that for Pence and Biden, the coverage and titles of the issue in the news just says confidential documents found. Doesn’t indicate what level of classification, that they were often found after voluntary checks, etc. For many people it will just be immediately filed away in their heads as being the same thing as Trump.

[u/IrritableGourmet → u/M00n]

Of the three crimes listed in the Mar-A-Lago search warrant, all three require specific intent to take the documents and/or obstruct investigations into the documents and one requires "intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation."

The only one that might apply to Biden's situation is 18 U.S.C. § 793(f), which requires that the documents be removed or lost through gross negligence, which is a specific legal standard of willful reckless disregard that leads to an extreme departure from the normal duty of care, not just "I think it's negligent".

[u/DrunkenMastery → u/M00n]

I don't like that this is whitewashing Trump's planning and executing a coup. Dudes a treasonous traitor, a Benedict Arnold, a quisling. This classified documents is small when compared to his attempt to overthrow the government.

[u/LucyRiversinker]

Now let’s check Kushner and Bannon, please.

[u/Konukaame]

A lawyer for former Vice President Mike Pence discovered about a dozen documents marked as classified at Pence’s Indiana home last week, and he has turned those classified records over to the FBI, multiple sources familiar with the matter told CNN.

And just like Biden's team, and completely UNLIKE Trump's, he did the right thing and handed them over immediately, which makes this one also a non-story, as far as I'm concerned. At most, Pence some criticism for hypocrisy since he's been shitting on Biden, but that's it.

It falls under the "don't punish the behavior you want" principle. If the proper return of accidentally removed documents is punished, it incentivizes people to hide or destroy such documents in the future instead of returning them.

[u/troubadoursmith]

Okay.

So like... obviously these are both very different from Trump repeatedly lying about having things, refusing to return them, and making clear efforts to hide them.

But also we REALLY obviously need to entirely rethink our systems for handling, handing out, tracking, and getting back classified material. I've seen more careful control procedures over arduino kits at a community college.

[u/CubbyRed → u/troubadoursmith]

Jesus christ, we have better protocols for tracking the items we circulate from the library I work at.

[u/Eternal_Musician_85 → u/troubadoursmith]

According to one Homeland Security official I heard a couple weeks back, there really isn't a system for anything except the most highly classified stuff. Everything else is basically the honor system.

[u/Rayearl]

I’m just going to follow the Fox News narrative for Biden and call this treason.

[u/sherbodude → u/Rayearl]

I've been hearing that it is very illegal for a former VP to have classified documents.

[u/Xetanees → u/sherbodude]

And Senators, apparently!

[u/3_letter_username → u/Rayearl]

They'd gladly hang Pence to get to hang Biden. They already tried. They aren't normal. Don't play by their rules.

Normal people cooperate and return them. Criminals obstruct and hide them. Only one of those in the trio.

[u/User767676]

So is pence handling it the Biden way or the Trump way?

[u/anne_marie718 → u/User767676]

To his credit, seems like the Biden way. He asked for his belongings to be searched.

[u/Merreck1983 → u/anne_marie718]

It also further distances them from Trump's case because he isn't out there on social media screaming about black helicopters and Gestapo.

[u/_SewYourButtholeShut → u/Merreck1983]

That's an unfair characterization. Trump would have called it Gelato.

[u/kittenpantzen → u/User767676]

A lawyer for former Vice President Mike Pence discovered about a dozen documents marked as classified at Pence’s Indiana home last week, and he has turned those classified records over to the FBI, multiple sources familiar with the matter told CNN.

The FBI and the Justice Department’s National Security Division have launched a review of the documents and how they ended up in Pence’s house in Indiana.

The classified documents were discovered at Pence’s new home in Carmel, Indiana, by a lawyer for Pence in the wake of the revelations about classified material discovered in President Joe Biden’s private office and residence, the sources said. The discovery comes after Pence has repeatedly said he did not have any classified documents in his possession.

The Biden way. Even with the last line, I'd be more inclined to believe lack of attention than malice here.

[u/joegreen592]

See that wasn’t so fucken hard to do (Biden/Pence),

1) find classified docs in your possession/home 2) report said documents to appropriate agency(s) 3) return said documents promptly

What’s Trumps fucken excuse now for not returning the classified docs in his possession/home except being a POS?

[u/Stag328]

I am guessing they could find documents at almost every single person in the governments house that would be classified in some way.

I think finding them and removing them is the right thing to do jo matter who has them but I think maybe we should somehow distinguish “how classified” these documents are.

There is a huge difference between a company that has a government contract and nuclear codes or a list of CIA agents names.

Also volumtarily turning them in versus fighting their removal is a big difference.

Edit: When I said government I more meant along the lines of politicians and elected offices.

[u/PolicyWonka → u/Stag328]

You highlight my biggest problem with Trump’s documents.

Biden and Pence did the right thing. Hell, it seems like Biden at least proactively looked to see if there were more documents that should be handed over.

Trump lied. Trump’s documents were important enough that the archives noticed that they were missing and had to reach out to Trump about them. Trump lied, lied some more, and then obstructed the government.

Biden and Pence are also in the wrong, but context matters.

[u/WorkAccount42318]

Lets be clear, Biden and Pence said it was inadvertent and it was a handful of documents. Trump had much more and he intentionally kept the records found as a sort of trophy.

[u/HeartFullONeutrality]

I'm starting to suspect the government is not very good at keeping track of classified documents.

[u/SpaceButler]

It's clear that the system we have now to track classified documents given to officials in very highest levels of government isn't functioning correctly.

Trump was an outlier in that he was actively obstructing return of these types of documents, but it seems like they're all over the place.

[u/BabyYodaX]

I have no classified documents. Just saying.

[u/AnalSoapOpera]

After he criticized Biden for having classified documents.

[u/jakegh]

Two main takeaways from this ongoing story.

1) It's actually quite common for heads of state to mishandle classified documents, and we need to fix that.

2) Biden and Pence immediately returned the documents and notified the authorities, but Trump tried to keep them and lied to law enforcement.

[u/hellomondays]

The difference between Pence and Trump is that Pence's lawyers seem to have followed the proper procedures instead of obstructing

[u/circa285]

Better also check Jared and Ivanka's homes as well.